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#283592 - 25/06/2006 23:29 Gearing up for "Superman Returns"
FireFox31
pooh-bah

Registered: 19/09/2002
Posts: 2494
Loc: East Coast, USA
Sadly, I had no idea "Superman Returns" even existed until a few days ago. But after watching the trailers, it seems like quite a thrill.

Apparently it picks up where Superman 2 left off. So, to get ready for the release, I'll be renting #1 and 2.

Also, apparently, "Superman Returns" was the most expensive film ever, costing $300 million. I guess special effects just cost THAT much.

Considering the above two things, I was wondering: Were people as impressed with 1978 - 1980 special effects of Superman 1 and 2 as we will be by Superman Returns? And if so, in 25 years, what the heck kind of special effects could make people laugh at Superman Returns as being cheezy like we may laugh at Superman 1 and 2 now? My only answer to that is "Brave New World"'s "Feelies".

Thoughts? Psyched about the movie?
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FireFox31
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#283593 - 25/06/2006 23:38 Re: Gearing up for "Superman Returns" [Re: FireFox31]
ithoughti
old hand

Registered: 17/07/2001
Posts: 721
Loc: Boston, MA USA
I can't wait. I love all things Superman. I have to admit that one of my favorite shows on TV is Smallville. I know it's cheesy as hell, but I just can't get enough.

As far as Superman Returns... I love the trailer where it shows a bullet shattering on his eye. Sooo cool.
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#283594 - 26/06/2006 00:06 Re: Gearing up for "Superman Returns" [Re: FireFox31]
msaeger
carpal tunnel

Registered: 23/09/2000
Posts: 3608
Loc: Minnetonka, MN
I bet they would make more money if they used the techniques that were used to make the original superman movie. Plus it would be a cool gimmic.
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Matt

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#283595 - 26/06/2006 01:24 Re: Gearing up for "Superman Returns" [Re: FireFox31]
drakino
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
I'm pretty excited to see it, seems to be the likely blockbuster for the summer. And can't beat seeing it on company time, the office is all going out to see it on Wednesday afternoon. Nice way to break up the work week.

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#283596 - 26/06/2006 01:33 Re: Gearing up for "Superman Returns" [Re: msaeger]
hybrid8
carpal tunnel

Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
Almost as cool as a shark riding on the back of an elephant, trampling and eating everything in their path.

I suspect the effects of both Superman and Superman II were more impressive at the time than those of Superman Returns will be today.

Effects have gotten to the point where most people only notice/speak about them if they're crap. Which happens a lot unfortunately. The last three Star Wars movies had some pretty spectacular effects, but were also riddled with a lot of craptastic garbage to complain about. I don't remember anyone complaining about the effects of the time when the first three movies premiered.
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#283597 - 26/06/2006 03:31 Re: Gearing up for "Superman Returns" [Re: FireFox31]
ricin
veteran

Registered: 19/06/2000
Posts: 1495
Loc: US: CA
I heard and saw a lot of neat stuff from Bryan Singer and Brandon Routh at WonderCon this year. I've been looking forward to seeing it since it was announced, and have been following the video blog.

I have my ticket for the Tuesday 10PM showing.

We'll see...
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#283598 - 26/06/2006 09:06 Re: Gearing up for "Superman Returns" [Re: ricin]
Cybjorg
addict

Registered: 23/12/2002
Posts: 652
Loc: Winston Salem, NC
Probably won't show up here in the Middle East for a couple more weeks. We're just now getting V for Vendetta (which sucked, or so I hear). From time to time, some movies will appear here a day or so before they show in the states (this happened with both MI:3 and X-men 3), but it's rare. I'll be in England in 2 weeks, so I may have to catch it there.

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#283599 - 26/06/2006 11:59 Re: Gearing up for "Superman Returns" [Re: Cybjorg]
hybrid8
carpal tunnel

Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
V for Vendetta was good. Another example of how a comic-based movie can be done well. Much better than all three X-Men movies and both Spiderman movies if that means anything. I'd rank it up with Batman begins.
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Bruno
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#283600 - 26/06/2006 12:29 Re: Gearing up for "Superman Returns" [Re: hybrid8]
Cybjorg
addict

Registered: 23/12/2002
Posts: 652
Loc: Winston Salem, NC
Ah, good deal. I'll have to go see it, then.

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#283601 - 26/06/2006 12:51 Re: Gearing up for "Superman Returns" [Re: hybrid8]
jbauer
veteran

Registered: 08/05/2000
Posts: 1429
Loc: San Francisco, CA
I agree. I loved that movie.

- Jon

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#283602 - 26/06/2006 16:40 Re: Gearing up for "Superman Returns" [Re: FireFox31]
canuckInOR
carpal tunnel

Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
Quote:
Also, apparently, "Superman Returns" was the most expensive film ever, costing $300 million. I guess special effects just cost THAT much.

Well... visual effects do cost a lot (I think the rule of thumb is roughly $1million/minute, depending on shot complexity, and expected quality of output), but it doesn't help when you have studio execs dickering with the producers dickering with the director, right up to the deadline, about just what a visual effect is supposed to look like, and whether or not a particular shot is final or needs more work. "Returns" seems like a classic case of a film that's only "done" because it had to go to theatres -- otherwise, it would still be in production.

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#283603 - 26/06/2006 17:38 Re: Gearing up for "Superman Returns" [Re: canuckInOR]
Waterman981
old hand

Registered: 14/02/2002
Posts: 804
Loc: Salt Lake City, UT
One thing I saw on a TV show about Superman Returns was that they had spent $65 Million before shooting a single frame. The movie has been in the works for 10 years.

But I have my ticket for 10 pm tomorrow night!
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#283604 - 26/06/2006 18:04 Re: Gearing up for "Superman Returns" [Re: Waterman981]
hybrid8
carpal tunnel

Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
It's been at least 10 years. And I'm still sorry Kevin Smith didn't pen the final screenplay.
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#283605 - 26/06/2006 23:33 Re: Gearing up for "Superman Returns" [Re: hybrid8]
canuckInOR
carpal tunnel

Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
Maybe this should go in "best videos", but...

Kevin Smith discussing his involvement with the Superman movie.

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#283606 - 27/06/2006 13:58 Re: Gearing up for "Superman Returns" [Re: canuckInOR]
ithoughti
old hand

Registered: 17/07/2001
Posts: 721
Loc: Boston, MA USA
that's a great clip! Thank god he didn't write the final script. Too bad that Peters is still a producer though. Here's hoping there's no giant spider in the movie.
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#283607 - 27/06/2006 14:20 Re: Gearing up for "Superman Returns" [Re: canuckInOR]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31600
Loc: Seattle, WA
Quote:
Maybe this should go in "best videos", but...

Kevin Smith discussing his involvement with the Superman movie.

One of the funniest things I've seen in a long time. Thank you.
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Tony Fabris

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#283608 - 27/06/2006 14:36 Re: Gearing up for "Superman Returns" [Re: canuckInOR]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31600
Loc: Seattle, WA
Oh, and from a friend to whom I sent the link of that video:

Kevin's Script (allegedly).
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Tony Fabris

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#283609 - 27/06/2006 16:07 Re: Gearing up for "Superman Returns" [Re: ithoughti]
hybrid8
carpal tunnel

Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
I suppose you also wouldn't have wanted to see Nick Cage as Superman then. I was looking forward to that too.

Bruno
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#283610 - 27/06/2006 17:07 Re: Gearing up for "Superman Returns" [Re: hybrid8]
ithoughti
old hand

Registered: 17/07/2001
Posts: 721
Loc: Boston, MA USA
Oh hell no! Nick Cage as Superman? If Superman was any known actor it would be about that actor in tights, not Superman. Besides, Cage is a terrible actor and looks nothing like Superman should look (i.e. not 50 years old!)
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#283611 - 27/06/2006 17:33 Re: Gearing up for "Superman Returns" [Re: tfabris]
lastdan
enthusiast

Registered: 31/05/2002
Posts: 352
Loc: santa cruz,ca
Quote:
Quote:
Maybe this should go in "best videos", but...

Kevin Smith discussing his involvement with the Superman movie.

One of the funniest things I've seen in a long time. Thank you.



if this film is half as good as that clip we're all in for a treat.

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#283612 - 27/06/2006 17:33 Re: Gearing up for "Superman Returns" [Re: tfabris]
RobotCaleb
pooh-bah

Registered: 15/01/2002
Posts: 1866
Loc: Austin
That was fun.

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#283613 - 27/06/2006 18:02 Re: Gearing up for "Superman Returns" [Re: ithoughti]
hybrid8
carpal tunnel

Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
Superman is also not supposed to have gotten younger after Superman II (when a portion of this movie takes place).

I think Cage could have pulled it off, the same way Christian Bale did with Bruce Wayne/Batman.

I think the biggest question I have is whether or not they'll deal with the absolutely moronic idea that people do not see Clark Kent as Superman, just because he's wearing a pair of glasses. I know my girlfriend doesn' scream bloody terror thinking someone else is getting into bed with her at night when I take my glasses off.
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#283614 - 27/06/2006 18:35 Re: Gearing up for "Superman Returns" [Re: hybrid8]
RobotCaleb
pooh-bah

Registered: 15/01/2002
Posts: 1866
Loc: Austin
It's because she's thinking something else, isn't it?

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#283615 - 27/06/2006 18:53 Re: Gearing up for "Superman Returns" [Re: RobotCaleb]
Waterman981
old hand

Registered: 14/02/2002
Posts: 804
Loc: Salt Lake City, UT
Quote:
The Shoveller: If we had a billionaire like Lance Hunt as our benefactor...
Mr. Furious: That's because Lance Hunt *IS* Captain Amazing
The Shoveller: Don't start that *again*. Lance Hunt wears glasses. Captain Amazing *doesn't* wear glasses.
Mr. Furious: He takes them off when he transforms.
The Shoveller: That doesn't make any sense, he wouldn't be able to see.


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#040103696 on a shelf
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#283616 - 27/06/2006 18:56 Re: Gearing up for "Superman Returns" [Re: lastdan]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31600
Loc: Seattle, WA
Quote:
if this film is half as good as that clip we're all in for a treat.

I'm pretty sure that's a clip from "An Evening with Kevin Smith" from a few years ago, which I'm told is quite awesome. Something I'd been meaning to get the DVD of for a while, so seeing that segment was my excuse to order it today. I'll let you know how it is.

Unless by "this film", you meant Superman. Which I'm sure isn't nearly as entertaining as Kevin.
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#283617 - 27/06/2006 20:18 Re: Gearing up for "Superman Returns" [Re: tfabris]
matthew_k
pooh-bah

Registered: 12/02/2002
Posts: 2298
Loc: Berkeley, California
Well, the DVD was just a compilation of the speaking tour he went on, mostly at various colleges. It was a great evening, well worth whatever I paid for the ticket. He told that exact anecdote pretty much word for word.

Matthew

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#283618 - 27/06/2006 23:47 Re: Gearing up for "Superman Returns" [Re: Waterman981]
FireFox31
pooh-bah

Registered: 19/09/2002
Posts: 2494
Loc: East Coast, USA
Quote:
$65 Million before shooting a single frame.

Oh heck yeah. Storyboards, previs, laying out every shot, mocking up every CG. I enjoy watching the behind-the-scenes of good movies as much as the movies themselves. Lord of the Rings extended edition!

Quote:
Effects have gotten to the point where most people only notice/speak about them if they're crap.

Interesting. I wonder when that change happened. Jurassic Park blew people away in 1993. Toy Story got some attention in 1995. What else in the past 10 years had groundbreaking special effects that really took audiences to the next level? The Matrix in 1999? Kind of. Lord of the Rings 2002-2003 "Massive Engine" crowd scenes?!

Or heck, not even flashy explody special effects, but even Sin City cinematography that really gets noticed and takes us beyond tie big screen. When did effects stop being noticed, and what are the exceptions?
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FireFox31
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#283619 - 28/06/2006 01:46 Re: Gearing up for "Superman Returns" [Re: FireFox31]
hybrid8
carpal tunnel

Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
"Effects" are becoming more seamless and just blended right into the movie. It's like being desensitized to violence. A lot of movies employ some really sophisticated animation so well integrated into the movie a lot of people don't even realize they're effects shots.

For instance, did you ever see any previews for Hoodwinked? The first thing I thought when I saw the trailer was, OMG, the animation and modelling are totally sub-par for a feature film. Granted, the animators could have been going for that low-tech video game look, but it wasn't obvious enough - such as with the way South Park or Bromwell High are animated for instance.

For King Kong, I thought the effects were decent and worked well with the picture, but I didnt' give them much thought or special attention. Which I hope was the point. Some people commented they looked "cheezy" or cheap. I didn't notice anyone raving about them being good.

George Lucas and a bunch of others tried to rally up some publicity for the last three Star Wars by talking about all the effects shots. Well, they didn't make the movies any better. And so many were so poorly executed they were painful to watch. All in all I don't think they were as groundbreaking or even as well done as movies that both came before and after them.
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#283620 - 29/06/2006 21:42 Re: Gearing up for "Superman Returns" [Re: hybrid8]
FireFox31
pooh-bah

Registered: 19/09/2002
Posts: 2494
Loc: East Coast, USA
I guess that's it then. Effects have reached their peak. Anyone who tries to push effects even further will look too "Starwars Prequel".

I guess it is a good point that effects should blend into the movie. I thought many of those LotR "Massive" orcs were somehow acted at first glance.
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FireFox31
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#283621 - 29/06/2006 22:21 Re: Gearing up for "Superman Returns" [Re: FireFox31]
hybrid8
carpal tunnel

Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
Effects haven't reached their peak. Not by a long shot. I was definitely not trying to make that point. But we as movie-goers continually expect more and more before we consider something "mind blowing." Especially viewers that are technologically savy, IMO.

The capabilities exist today to create better effects than are demonstrated in most movies. So when something is weak, it stands out like a sore thumb. Like all the various throw-away shots they ended up using in the last three Star Wars movies that made what should have looked like natural human forms look like computerized plastic action figures being animated by stop-motion.

Take for instance all the clips I've seen of the new Superman movie. Everything looks good so far. Well blended and generally well thought out. Including the bullet to the eye. But I'm not jumping out of my seat saying "wow, can you believe that!? How is that possible? How did they do that?" - because it's all common place now and I know very well how they did it. Of course I still appreciate the artistic talent behind all of it. So I suppose now it's more akin to appreciating something like a painting. More for the artistic/creative instinct rather than the technological marvel.

But it's all a matter of perspective. Because when looking at some older productions, I *am* (still? now?) quite amazed. Simply by what they did with the technology of the time. In movies as well as so many other things - going back even to earliest recorded history.
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Bruno
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#283622 - 30/06/2006 14:55 Re: Gearing up for "Superman Returns" [Re: hybrid8]
Cybjorg
addict

Registered: 23/12/2002
Posts: 652
Loc: Winston Salem, NC
I guess the rub for me is that the effects should be so seamless that rather than being noticable, they simply suck me further into the movie. The LoTR trilogy pulled this of amazingly well, I think.

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#283623 - 30/06/2006 15:38 Re: Gearing up for "Superman Returns" [Re: Cybjorg]
hybrid8
carpal tunnel

Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
That's exactly how things should be. Effects are there to complement the story and enhance a scene. If it's a fireworks show someone wants then they're better off watching a demo reel.

I have high hopes for Superman in this regard. Like I said, the effects I've seen so far have all been done in a way that makes them look natural (so you never have to think about them at all). LoTR was just about the best example ever.

Bruno
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#283624 - 30/06/2006 17:14 Re: Gearing up for "Superman Returns" [Re: FireFox31]
canuckInOR
carpal tunnel

Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
Quote:
I guess that's it then. Effects have reached their peak. Anyone who tries to push effects even further will look too "Starwars Prequel".

It's true that visual effects aren't growing with the same leaps and bounds (sorry, but it *is* a Superman thread) as in the past -- take a look at the diversity of visual effects related SIGGRAPH talks and papers of recent years, compared to, say, a decade ago -- but they are far, far, far from reaching a peak. What's happening now is that much of the research is going into refining techniques, such as introduction of more scientifically accurate models that were, previously, too prohibitively computationally expensive for use in visual effects. For example, some of the scenes in Superman required more than one PhD-holder writing and supporting fluid and gas simulation software, using fluid dynamics simulation algorithms that were just "discovered" a few years ago in conjunction with mathematical models of ocean behaviour from a professor of oceanography.

From a film-goer's perspective, you may "see" a plateau, but in reality, you're just not "seeing" all the effects, which really is the point (unless the story calls for something special).

The "Starwars Prequel" look is the result of having no artistic vision, and confusing FX with story. It's the same problem you get anywhere else -- just because you can, doesn't mean you should. Sometimes less is more.

Quote:
I guess it is a good point that effects should blend into the movie. I thought many of those LotR "Massive" orcs were somehow acted at first glance.

Technically, they were. Massive forms coherent movement of an agent by blending between different "movement phenomes", if you will. Typically, in the case of humanoid creatures, those phenomes have been recorded by motion capture of human actors.

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